From: Cari Machet (email suppressed)
Date: Sat Mar 11 2006 - 09:18:10 PST
there is a difference in 'subconscious' and 'unconscious'
(as real as 'undead' and 'subdead')
- also 'mild' is not nessasarily accurate in all cases -
i disagree of the 'more focus'
it very much depends on the fishes feelings and the consciousness
level of the fisherman
esp. re: cavemanesque qualities
these frames of 'submission' blah - blah [fucking]... authoritarian -
dominance ...
could b placed anywhere
even upon the east river i am (having a relationship with by) looking at so...
it is not all that of a discrimination
besides all film audiences do not 'submit' i would say
different films have different levels of access
and different audience members have different access points
some audience members may never do such activity in watching a film as 'submit'
and hopefully it is more of a interaction than 'submit' would elucidate
c
On 3/11/06, Tony Conrad <email suppressed> wrote:
> It is worth bearing in mind that the masochistic tropism of audience
> members, who in their capacity as audience members submit to the film,
> induces a (mild) form of social "sadism" among filmmakers that--albeit
> often unconscious--is more focused in its authoritarian aspects than
> is the killer-sadism of fishing.
>
> --------t0ny
>
>
> Quoting field <email suppressed>:
>
> > the big difference
> >
> >
> > fishing is not about communication
> >
> > its not about relating to others or transporting a
> > idea/message/feeling...
> >
> >
> >
> > but obviously you can do films just for himself and leave them in a
> > cabinet
> >
> > that's the artist right
> >
> >
> > patrick huber
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >--- "jarrod whaley." <email suppressed> wrote:
> > >
> > >> So you would argue that there's no difference between being an
> > >> experimental filmmaker and being a recreational fisherman, for
> > >> example?
> > >>
> > >> -->jarrod whaley.
> > >
> > >Wow, that's a giant leap in logic. Both are hobbies, yes, but one
> > is
> > >fishing and one is filmmaking. I would, however, argue that
> > >experimental filmmaking can be a very pleasuarble activity, and
> > like
> > >fishing, contains stretches of inactivity, anticipation,
> > frustration,
> > >and success.
> > >
> > >Every hobby (as well as every vocation) is unique. I know the
> > reasons
> > >I make film are different than the reasons I paint, make music,
> > play
> > >soccer, go hiking, read travel books, or cook desserts. What they
> > have
> > >in common is that I don't earn any income from them, I do them
> > because
> > >I enjoy them. The energy I put into each activity and the possible
> > >rewards are drastically different.
> > >
> > >-Jason Halprin
> > >
> > >--- "jarrod whaley." <email suppressed> wrote:
> > >
> > >> So you would argue that there's no difference between being an
> > >> experimental filmmaker and being a recreational fisherman, for
> > >> example?
> > >>
> > >> -->jarrod whaley.
> > >> filmmaker. videographer.
> > >> web designer. educator.
> > >> www.oakstreetfilms.com
> > >> www.shakingray.com
> > >> design.oakstreetfilms.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Jason Halprin wrote:
> > >> > >From the Oxford American Dictionary:
> > >> >
> > >> > hobby - an occupation that a person does for pleasure, not as
> > his
> > >> main
> > >> > business
> > >> >
> > >> > I never insuated that dedicating your life and energy to
> > something
> > >> that
> > >> > is not financially rewarding does cannot have serious rewards.
> > I
> > >> just
> > >> > mean that teaching, currating, working in a post house, working
> > in
> > >> the
> > >> > film/television industry, and other jobs that many on this list
> > do
> > >> are
> > >> > not making a living from your filmmaking. They are working a
> > job,
> > >> your
> > >> > filmmaking is supported by this other job.
> > >> >
> > >> > I personally find it insulting that the extremely hard work
> > that
> > >> some
> > >> > people have put in to create venues and organizations that
> > promote
> > >> A/G
> > >> > work is so easily dismissed as self-serving.
> > >> >
> > >> > -Jason Halprin
> > >> >
> > >> > --- "jarrod whaley." <email suppressed> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> Jason Halprin wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> One of the basic facts that exists for many A/G film and
> > video
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> makers
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> (in the US and elsewhere, though not everywhere) is that
> > they
> > >> will
> > >> >>> never recoup the costs that are associated with their work,
> > let
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> alone
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> turn it into a full-time profession. As such it is more
> > >> accuratley
> > >> >>> described as a hobby, and hobbies are money-losing ventures.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> Baloney. One might not accumulate riches on par with the
> > Sultan of
> > >>
> > >> >> Brunei, but many "underground" or "avant-garde" filmmakers can
> > and
> > >> do
> > >> >>
> > >> >> scratch out a meager existence. It just takes a little
> > creativity,
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> the willingness to realize that good work doesn't have to cost
> > a
> > >> >> penny,
> > >> >> if necessary, to make.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I find this "hobby" business of yours very insulting.
> > Dedicating
> > >> >> one's
> > >> >> life and energy to an often financially unrewarding (but
> > often
> > >> >> financially "livable") form of creativity is not on the same
> > level
> > >> of
> > >> >>
> > >> >> engagement and/or social worth as collecting Star Wars action
> > >> figures
> > >> >> or
> > >> >> building model planes. Be careful with that glue, it's
> > dangerous
> > >> >> stuff,
> > >> >> you know.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> If you are against paying fees, look for free festivals. Or
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> volunteer
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> for one so that your labor may bring down the fees for that
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> festival.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> Write the grant proposals, talk to donors, make press
> > releases,
> > > > >>>
> > >> >> pass
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> out flyers, get on the radio, do whatever it takes. It is
> > >> already
> > >> >>> difficult for most of us the share our work with people we
> > don't
> > >> >>> personally know, so if festivals are not a necessity, they
> > are a
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> luxury
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> I believe is worth paying for.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> If you think it's worth paying for someone to potentially
> > throw
> > >> your
> > >> >> work away and never tell you, then go ahead. Wipe your ass
> > with
> > >> $100
> > >> >> bills, for all I care. I just happen to find Charmin to be
> > much
> > >> more
> > >> >> cost efficient, not to mention less irritating to my
> > sensitive
> > >> bits.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -->jarrod whaley.
> > >> >> filmmaker. videographer.
> > >> >> web designer. educator.
> > >> >> www.oakstreetfilms.com
> > >> >> www.shakingray.com
> > >> >> design.oakstreetfilms.com
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > >> >> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at
> > <email suppressed>.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > __________________________________________________
> > >> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
> > around
> > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > >> > For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at
> > <email suppressed>.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > >> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at
> > <email suppressed>.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________________________
> > >For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.