From: Clive Holden (email suppressed)
Date: Mon Jun 16 2008 - 04:39:03 PDT
The ubuweb/bootlegging conversation has touched on many important
issues. Thanks for all involved so far.
One of my own questions: is an experimental film primarily an object
or idea? Part of my on-going interest is that it seems to shine a
light on the border between both.
I tend to think that filming is a more visceral experience than
shooting video (looking through the lens versus 'monitoring' the
process, videotaping seems more like recording audio to me). 'Hand-
made' post production processes are obviously more physical, are
intended to be. But much of my interest lies in the fact that holding
the material in my hands seems to change the way my brain interacts
with it, it changes the creative process, although I often wonder if
'physicality' can be introduced into the process in other ways with a
similar affect. I have an up-coming project that will include a lot
of walking, for example, which will partly be an attempt to do this.
I've also recently finished a cinema-based installation that's my
attempt to work in this 'border area' during exhibition. This is done
through the installation's obvious nature as an object (a wooden cube
in this case, which seems to help highlight both the idea and
physicality of the projections), but also through the work's
inclusion of a 'dance floor/main viewing area' (inside the cube --
some gallery-goers have actually danced within the structure, which
is a small victory). You can look at it here if you like: http://
disco.utopiasuite.com . Of course, in this case there's less conflict
between on-line presentation of the work because it's primarily
documentation of an exhibition that can only be (more obviously)
fully experienced in person.
I'd be very interested in other Frameworkers examples of their own,
or other peoples', work in this area, contemporary and historical.
What are your favourite examples of cinema-based exhibition that seem
to explore these issues? These could also include 'events' (when
films are shown with live music performance, for example, if the
audience gets up and dances or just moves, is more ambulatory, what
does this mean)? I love the traditional cinema/theatrical experience
(dark rooms, rows of seats) but I think exploring physicality in
making and 'viewing' work will help me to understand how moving image
art functions. I think it will improve the work that I make to be
screened in cinemas.
All this said, I'd also just like to know which Frameworkers have
posted their work on-line, as samples, full-length, Quicktime versus
Flash, etc. (with links please), and ask how they feel about the
experience?
All The Best,
-Clive Holden.
On 15-Jun-08, at 7:53 PM, Brook Hinton wrote:
> Two things:
>
> David: "The only times 21st century people step out of their
> individual media cocoons is for 'special' events"
> My experience with students is quite the opposite. But that may
> reflect that my last two primary teaching gigs have been art
> schools. I do note some live component adds greatly to the
> excitement (filmmaker in person, live film/video/audio generation
> of some sort).
>
> Dominic: "we pay the
> artist 50% not 10% that amazon pays"
> Just for the record, depending on means of distribution via Amazon
> (createspace - where it can range from 0% to 90% depending on the
> list price -or direct sale to amazon, etc), the percentage is much
> closer to 50 than to 10. I haven't calculated mine in a while but I
> believe it works out to close to 40%.
>
> As someone who has chaired a film department, I believe that while
> it is possible online video sources have reduced coop rentals, the
> more likely culprit online is torrent sites, and the likely culprit
> is not online but the astonishing, shocking, wholesale slashing of
> rental budgets. A semester of avant-garde film history on a budget
> of two or maybe three hundred dollars anyone? And it's not just a
> film problem - how many rentals from VDB can you get for that same
> amount for a video art course?
>
> The problem for me remains: making the best art one can and
> advancing the form requires that artists have the option to do it
> full time (yes, some can do it part time and produce great work,
> but these are exceptions), yet obscurity wlll kill the forms
> outright, and we need a culture where every single high school
> student in the country can see Sadie Benning's video diaries,
> Serene Velocity, Window Water Baby Moving, and the list goes on...
> multiple times, in class AND on their own. How do we meet the needs
> of the culture and the artist? Can we make the age of infinite
> digital reproduction work to support this or are we going to drown
> ourselves sticking to existing models and fears?
>
> Brook
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM, DOMINIC ANGERAME
> <email suppressed> wrote:
> Hi Jorge...actually 16mm rentals have not been
> disappearing....I think that is what most people want
> to think.....just not the case.......
>
> Canyon's prices for sale dvds are high...we pay the
> artist 50% not 10% that amazon pays....
>
> I do not know where you get that figure of rentals
> decreasing...however I would recommend you buy Scott
> MacDonald's new books called "Canyon Cinema......"
> where the figures are listed from 1966 thru the
> present....regading the rental figures.
>
> Canyon Cinema sells this book for $29.99 plus
> shipping, tax.
>
> email suppressed
>
>
> Rentals have fallen ONLY SINCE DVD COPIES, UBU,
> YOUTUBE, AND OTHER RIP OFF COMPANIES HAVE COME
> AROUND.....
>
> I am sorry to be so angry...however, if you really
> want my professional advice and experience you have to
> pay for it......like you would any other professional
> whether it be teacher, researcher, scholar, curator,
> or shrink....I will quote you unaffordable rates off
> the list.
>
> I would like to know how much Re-voir and others gross
> a year in sales and how much goes back to the
> artists....
>
> Dominic
>
> --- Jorge Amaro <email suppressed> wrote:
>
> > Well, the dvd's and vhs i see for sale on canyon are
> > very overpriced
> > compared to the dvd's amazon sells. I never came
> > accross a single
> > person that was happy with seeing the version of
> > Fuses on UBU. It has
> > a low resolution was badly transcoded and probably
> > from some bootleg
> > that is totally messed up. If there was a retail
> > version i would
> > gladly buy it, and i'm very sure other people would
> > aswell. I dont
> > know the numbers of microcinema or re-voir but i'm
> > pretty sure they
> > sell, otherwise they would be out of business and if
> > you search hard
> > enough you'll find most of the stuff they released
> > on the internet for
> > viewing and downloading.
> >
> > Hasn't the rentals in the last 20 years being
> > decreasing any way?
> > There was the big boom of experimental cinema in the
> > 70's and I
> > believe after that it just started to decrease, a
> > lot and has been
> > going downhill ever since. I might be wrong though.
> >
> > How to reach young people with experimental cinema?
> > I dont attend much
> > screenings due to me geographical location, but thew
> > few i do attend
> > is mostly older people (more than 50), what will
> > happen when that
> > generation dies? Will exp. fall on to oblivion, like
> > so many films
> > already are? I do not hold the answers to anything,
> > but i honestly
> > dont believe that UBU or the internet has naything
> > to do with the
> > decrease of rentals.
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/6/15 DOMINIC ANGERAME
> > <email suppressed>:
> > > Hi Jorge...please regard my other post.....YES
> > YES
> > > YES......posting of films on UBU, youtube, and the
> > > rest HAS HAS, yes HAS decreased rentals and
> > demands
> > > for people to see these works in other ways....
> > > .......it has impacted the entire field......in a
> > > negative way.....and if it continues the field
> > will
> > > not be able to be plowed......I cannot be more
> > > clear.....thanks
> > >
> > > Dominic
> > > --- Jorge Amaro <email suppressed> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dominic,
> > >>
> > >> If you dont mind me asking, do you think that UBU
> > or
> > >> other such places
> > >> affected the booking of prints on canyon cinema?
> > How
> > >> as the booking
> > >> being since the beggining of this decade? As it
> > >> declined in any way?
> > >>
> > >> 2008/6/15 DOMINIC ANGERAME
> > >> <email suppressed>:
> > >> > As a ps......I believe it was me that wrote to
> > UBU
> > >> > some time ago asking that they remove Bruce
> > >> Conner,
> > >> > Peter Kubelka, and other filmmakers whom I knew
> > >> only
> > >> > had thier work with Canyon Cinema and had no
> > >> desire,
> > >> > intention, or inclination to digitize their
> > work
> > >> and
> > >> > present it to the public that way....for either
> > >> > preview or exhibition purposes......they do not
> > >> need
> > >> > to pad their resumes and add another lecture
> > tour
> > >> at
> > >> > least no thru UBU
> > >> >
> > >> > Dominic Angerame
> > >> > Canyon Cinema
> > >> > --- Zev Robinson <email suppressed> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ---------------------------------
> > >> > I'd like to question thebasic assumption
> > that
> > >> Joel
> > >> > started off with, not saying that he'sentirely
> > >> wrong,
> > >> > but just that it is not that it is not as
> > simple
> > >> as
> > >> > hestated, nor is it necessarily one side or the
> > >> other.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Is it really bad forbusiness?
> > >> >
> > >> > Are there any stats on claims of a loss of
> > >> revenue?
> > >> > Are thoseartists who become better know because
> > of
> > >> > internet (ubuweb, utube, p2p)more or less
> > likely
> > >> to
> > >> > increase sales of dvds or cds?
> > >> >
> > >> > Are their overallearnings more or less likely
> > to
> > >> > increase via lectures, commissions,teaching
> > >> > opportunities, screening fees, purchases by
> > >> > institutions, andotheropportunities?
> > >> >
> > >> > On the whole, does ubu increase the
> > popularityand
> > >> > renown of the artists on the site, and thus
> > >> increase
> > >> > sales? ordoesn't it? And how many people _do_
> > buy
> > >> a
> > >> > dvd because they first sawit on ubu and decide
> > >> that
> > >> > they want a better quality copy? Just
> > >> becausesomeone
> > >> > does see something on Ubu or utube, it doesn't
> > >> > necessarily meanthat they would purchase a dvd
> > if
> > >> it
> > >> > were not available. Nor doesseeing something on
> > >> Ubu
> > >> > mean that someone won't buy a dvd to view on
> > >> alarger
> > >> > screen and with better quality.
> > >> >
> > >> > I noticed that there are some links to re:voir
> > to
> > >> > purchase the dvd ifone wishes to.
> > >> >
> > >> > I recently read that obscurity is a much
> > >> greaterdanger
> > >> > to artists than file sharing. There are many
> > >> articles
> > >> > anddebates out there on the complexity the
> > >> > relationship between filesharing and sales and
> > the
> > >> > overall earnings of bands and how often itmeans
> > an
> > >> > increase in revenues. My feeling is that Ubu
> > >> provides
> > >> > aservice where people can see a copy or
> > >> reproduction,
> > >> > quality issuesaside, of things that they may
> > >> otherwise
> > >> > not see or know about, andthat broadly,
> > enhances
> > >> and
> > >> > disseminates an alternative culture, andthat
> > can
> > >> only
> > >> > be good for artists.
> > >> >
> > >> > Zev
> > >> >
> > >> > Zev Robinson
> > >> > www.artafterscience.com
> > >> > www.zrdesign.co.uk
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Joel S Bachar wrote:
> > >> > Dear Frameworkers and Directors of the Board of
> > >> > UbuWeb:We would like to address some serious
> > >> concerns
> > >> > of ours and theartists/labels/distributors we
> > >> > represent in regards to the practices ofUbuWeb,
> > >> and
> > >> > some of the opinions posted about it on this
> > >> > Listserv.The recent threads have shifted to the
> > >> > quality of online viewing which wewould not
> > like
> > >> to
> > >> > address here as this is another issue.We feel
> > that
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________________
> Brook Hinton
> film/video/audio art
> www.brookhinton.com
> studio vlog/blog: www.brookhinton.com/temporalab
> __________________________________________________________________
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.