From: malgosia askanas (email suppressed)
Date: Sun Jan 11 2009 - 09:09:21 PST
I love it: first you question whether Frameworks is the right place
to debate politics, and then you follow it up with a provocative
reply to my post - to which, however, I am not supposed to reply (if
I want to be a good citizen) because Frameworks is not the right
place to debate politics. Oy, it's all smoke and mirrors.
And I also love the fact that you are attacking me for one-sidedness
and flawed arguments, but you are not impelled to make any such reply
to the people who emit idiotic one-liners, like "a replay of the
Warsaw ghetto". These are neither one-sided nor flawed?
And then you proceed to put things on my mouth - another hallowed
technique. No, I did NOT say anywhere that the entire 800 casualty
figure is a result of Hamas using human shields. Most of it is the
result of Israel doing what it has set out to do - striking back at
Hamas. And you know what? To say that "the weapons of Hamas are
the weapons of the poor", as if that qualified Hamas' actions for
some special dispensation and Israeli tolerance, is condescending
toward Hamas. And so is the "what do you really, really know about
Islam" argument. These kinds of "arguments", which are designed to
stir up the interlocutors' bad conscience and Christian guilt, are
only too ubiquitous in the discourse about this war. And, contrary
to what several of you have been implying, they are just as
ubiquitous and pervasive in the mainstream media as they are on this
list - after all, bad conscience and Christian guilt is precisely
what nourishes and sustains mainstream media these day.
Frameworks may not be the right place to debate politics, but it
definitely is the right place to debate the meaning and political
usage of images. This thread started with someone asking for
donations to send cameras to Gaza. In these days of routinely
staged and doctored images, is a "documentary" image really worth a
thousand words? What IS a "documentary" image worth - without
knowledge of the matter, without understanding and thought (all of
which require words) - other than as a tool to stir up a knee-jerk
reaction?
-m
Marco wrote:
>Wow, that's really one-sided, and with flawed arguments.
>
>First of all, a question to FRAMEWORKS: is this the right place to
>debate politics ???
>
>Second: Your point about 800 dead palestinians vs 14 israeli dead.
>Right. Are you somehow implying that those 800 died because Hamas
>used them as shields, maybe as a way to attract international media
>attention, and pity? What view you have of the ethical precepts of
>Islam? What do you really, really, know about Islam? I don't think
>your argument is admissible nor sustainable.
>
>I think that the ratio of 800 (of which 200 children?) vs 14 (only
>soldiers if I'm not mistaken) says what is what. A massacre is
>taking place before our lazy eyes. The rockets of Hamas are weapons
>of the poor, the only thing left to them to say that they exist and
>will resist Israeli's state massacre.
>
>I suggest that, before making empty claims about how to reach peace,
>you steer away for a while from whatever newspapers and news you
>read, and carefully examine facts, which are actually easily found
>on non-aligned internet sources than in American media.
>
>peace,
>marco
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: malgosia askanas <email suppressed>
>>Sent: Jan 10, 2009 3:24 PM
>>To: email suppressed
>>Subject: Re: Cameras for Gaza
>>
>>Shelly Silver wrote:
>>
>>>800 palestinians dead
>>>14 israelis dead
>>
>>We truly live in a new world - where wars are required to be waged
>>in such a way as to make sure one's own casualties are comparable
>>to those of the enemy. Well, I propose that if Hamas doesn't like
>>these figures, they should agree to a real cease-fire, recognize
>>Israel's right to exist, and stop terrorrizing the Israeli
>>population. This would be a very hope-inspiring first step towards
>>an acual peace-process.
>>
>>And if the Red Cross is "shocked" at civilian casualties, they
>>should carefully examine Hamas' own treatment of Palestinian
>>civilians - such as Hamas' practice of using homes and schools for
>>warehousing of weapons and launching of missiles, or their practice
>>of using civilians as living shields.
> >
>>
>>-m
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------
>Marco Poloni, Korsörer Strasse 1, D-10437 Berlin
>gsm +41.78.6322028, skype marcopoloni
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.