From: JEFFREY PAULL (email suppressed)
Date: Tue Jan 20 2009 - 01:41:21 PST
On Mon 19/01/09 21:02 , owen email suppressed sent:
> WTF? Is this frameworkers??? fuck this shit.
>
>
>
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 6:38 PM, malgosia askanas wrote:
>
>
>
> > Chris,
>
> >
>
> > You are putting up an ill-defined strawman and then
> fighting it.
> > When you say
>
> >
>
> >> However, when you go into �judeophobia�, you are
> getting
> >> ridiculous. It�s a lot like when Bill O�reilly
> questions the
> >> patriotism of an American who does not believe in
> waterboarding or
> >> the war in Iraq.
>
> >
>
> > , I don't think that whatever it is that you call
> "ridiculous" and
> > refer to as "it" can be found in any of my posts in
> this thread.
> > You're second-guessing me, which is an instant recipe
> for a boring
> > non-event.
>
> >
>
> > But OK, I'll engage with some of what you say. First,
> judeophobia
> > is not per se about race (as it was cast by the
> Nureberg laws or the
> > laws of Tzarist Russia), or religion (as it was cast by
> the
> > Inquisition), or ideology (as it was cast in the Soviet
> block).
> > Judeophobia is Jew-hatred - however it is cast, it is
> simply and
> > solely about hating Jews. Many Jew-haters have never
> seen a Jew,
> > couldn't articulate what they mean by "Jew", and
> wouldn't recognize
> > one of they saw one; nonetheless they "know" that
> "Jews" are rats
> > and pigs, that they commit ritual murders, that they
> conspire to
> > take over the world, that they are responsible for all
> the world's
> > woes, that they defile and ruin whatever comes near
> them, and so on.
> >
>
> > Second, judeophobia is very much alive in the world,
> and is in fact
> > on the rise. And, as anybody who follows current
> events knows very
> > well, it is very, very present in the current protest
> demonstrations
> > "against the war in Gaza". Slogans like "Go back to
> the ovens" or
> > "Hitler didn't finish the job"; attacks on Jews,
> boycotts of stores
> > owned by Jews - these are NOT criticisms of, or
> protests against,
> > the errors of a state or a nation - these are, plain
> and simple,
> > abominablel expressions of Jew-hatred. And you can see
> a large
> > array of such events reported in, for instance
>
> >
>
> > http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=230
> >
>
> > Given these realities, which have persisted for
> centuries and should
> > be well-known to any "cultured" individual, I would say
> that YES
> > (bingo!), anobody who thinks that it is acceptable to
> discourse on
> > the matter by burping out slogans like "Abolish the
> state of Israel"
> > or "A replay of the Warsaw ghetto" is ipso facto
> aligning hirself
> > with judeophobes. These burps are not "critiques" and
> they are not
> > "subject positions" - they are either thoughtless,
> ignorant
> > regurgitations or something worse. And usually, if
> you scratch,
> > it's precisely something worse. Always the same old
> worse thing.
> >
>
> >
>
> >> You argued before that you like to keep things on the
> level of
> >> �facts�. But then you decide via Foucault that the
> other argument�s
> >> subject position is unable to speak towards facts
> because their
> >> context either puts them outside of the argument
> altogether or,
> >> even worse, is some self-hating paradigm that creates
> an added
> >> level of victimization (�you can�t agree with me
> because your
> >> historical context has made you hate your own
> people�).
> >
>
> > I never said any such thing.
>
> >
>
> >> The problem with throwing perceived subject positions
> into the
> >> arguments is that it makes it impossible to discuss
> because both
> >> sides assume that the other person is saying something
> because of a
> >> hidden position. We then make conjectures about the
> other�s subject
> >> position that, honestly, if actually spoken, would
> smack of racism.
> >> Me saying, �you take this position b/c of this & this
> & this� and
> >> you saying, �you take this position b/c of this & this
> & this�
> >> would be rather insulting and juvenile. It�s why some
> of the
> >> discussion on this listserv has gotten out of hand.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Well, the remedy to this is: either speak from, and
> with, knowledge,
> > thought and understanding, or don't speak. People who
> speak from
> > knowledge, thought and understanding don't speak in
> slogans. And
> > with those who insist on speaking in slogans, there can
> be no
> > pactuation. They put themselves in a position to which
> the only
> > response is "No passaran".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> I would hope that one would be able to transcend one�s
> historical/
> >> Foucauldian subject position to potentially see the
> other side
> >> (rather than bomb it).
>
> >> But even if one can�t, then I would stretch the
> argument to say
> >> that not only is the violence in Gaza (on both sides)
> killing
> >> bodies, but it�s really f*cking up future subject
> positions for the
> >> both of them. Clearly it is not the appropriate
> solution to the
> >> problem.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It is not a solution to any problem, but I am afraid it
> is precisely
> > what's happening.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -m
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
> __________________________________________________________________
> > For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
> om>.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
> om>.
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.