From: Myron Ort (email suppressed)
Date: Sat Jun 06 2009 - 19:53:54 PDT
JP,
Apology unnecessary. You have given me some good technical info I had
overlooked or was not aware of, especially the chemistry of removing
silver from exposed B&W without removing emulsion and also the info
on the effects of hardening fixer.
Bleach not only removes emulsion, it tends to remove color right out
of the dye when applied afterwards aside from the problems of getting
to stick to the film. I would advise those who use bleach on either
color or b&w stocks to spray with something like vinegar (or other
mild acid solution) to neutralize the bleaching agent.
Thanks again,
MO
On Jun 6, 2009, at 4:16 PM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
> Sorry, Myron, I anticipated you were just starting out. My
> outburst about colour, MacLaren, etc. was inappropriate.
> I guess my teachering (film) hasn't gone on holiday.
> If I'd been hip, I'd have put, "Just in case you don't already
> know, here's some other info."
>
> Two more things: (just in case)
> You can buy unexposed B&W PRINT stock cheap (Kodak used to make
> 7302 and 7362. both equally suitable. Maybe Kodak's still is making
> them.
> and submerge it in photo fixer as step #1. This will clear the film
> of light sensitive emulsion, leaving the gelatine intact.
> Use a "non'hardening" fixer for this.
> Advantage: fixing with a non-hardening fixer (without a developer
> step), allows the gelatine to remain very porus and receptive
> to dye. The labs use a hardening fixer as it toughens the gelatine
> for sturdy projection, but for you it makes any dye absorption take
> more time.
>
> Print stock film base is transparent. Camera stocks' base is grey.
>
> Done.
> JP
> Pretend you see no spelling errors; I can't tell the difference,
> and Safari has no spell check.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat 06/06/09 14:02 , Myron Ort email suppressed sent:
>> Hi Jeffrey,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again for the good information and concise review of important
>>
>> basics. I am very glad to now fully realize that the gelatin
>>
>> emulsion layer on modern print stocks will still absorb the water
>>
>> soluble dyes as well as previous stocks.
>>
>> My recent confusion about this resulted from assuming that some
>>
>> recently purchased "clear leader" preserved its emulsion layer, as it
>>
>> most likely would have had it been an earlier incarnation of this
>>
>> product. In fact, modern clear leader apparently can either have its
>>
>> emulsion layer preserved or not depending on how it was produced.
>>
>> This is not always made obvious in the marketplace. While I was
>>
>> still incorrectly assuming that this clear leader had its emulsion
>>
>> intact I discovered that it would NOT absorb the water soluble dyes
>>
>> and somehow jumped to the conclusion that it was a problem with the
>>
>> base. I have been aware of the "lip test" or "tongue test" but
>>
>> sometimes one can fool oneself a bit about this. Not to say that
>>
>> there aren't alternative paints, not water soluble, that will stick
>>
>> when the emulsion is absent, but if one might want to actually
>>
>> project hand-tinted prints, or if one's lab will not make prints when
>>
>> the paint layer has a problematic "thickness" beyond the level of the
>>
>> emulsion itself, then the viability of water soluble dyes becomes a
>>
>> necessity since they do not add any significant "thickness" to the
>>
>> film surface when finally dry.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just to mention some of my background, I have actually been painting
>>
>> on film in one form or another since the 60s. I have a background in
>>
>> painting as well as film. Color as it applied to film painting has
>>
>> always been a concern and a motivation since I perceived then, and
>>
>> still do now, that there is still much uncharted territory there.
>>
>> Some of my painting background and art education is based on the
>>
>> teaching of people like Hoyt L. Sherman and the gesalt psychology of
>>
>> perception, which, in its later developments included a rather
>>
>> elaborate theoretical analyses of color as well as an historical
>>
>> overview of color throughout its evolution in the history of
>>
>> painting. I apply this to cinema.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoyt_L._Sherman
>>
>>
>> I have several new hand painted films in the works and hopefully will
>>
>> have them out by the end of the year.
>>
>>
>>
>> I find this mode of filmmaking most exciting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Myron Ort
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2009, at 6:25 AM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi, Myron,
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The water soluble dye is absorbed by the gelatin
>> coating that's
>>> painted on the plastic film base.
>>
>>> So the film base doesn't matter: mylar, Estar, acetate,
>> etc.
>>> The transparent gelatin (variation of Jello) is mixed
>> with the
>>> light sensitive chemicals that, on development, will
>> become the image.
>>> The gelatin holds it in place, just as the paper in a
>> magazine
>>> holds the image in place.
>>
>>> That's why its possible to remove the developed image
>> and leave the
>>> gelatin in place,
>>
>>> just as (theoretically) you could remove the magazine
>> image and
>>> leave the paper.)
>>
>>> In any case, the gelatin-emulsion coating is the same
>> on an Estar,
>>> Acetate, Mylar film base.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> By the way, catch reflected light on the film and
>> you'll see
>>> the shiny-glossy side is the base side, and the almost
>> matt finish
>>> side is the emulsion side.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Another way to check which is the emulsion side is the
>> so-called
>>> "lip test".
>>
>>> Wet your lips and compress them (not hard) on both
>> sides of the
>>> cine film.
>>
>>> Part your lips, and the emulsion side will stick to the
>> lip it just
>>> touched.
>>
>>> Clever. (and non toxic)
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Water-based markers (aka non-permenant markers) work
>> only on the
>>> emulsion side, Permenant markers work better on the
>> base side.
>>>
>>
>>> If you want to remove water-based dye from the emulsion
>> side,
>>> simply soak it in warm-hot water to which maybe 10
>> drops of dish
>>> detergent has been added.
>>
>>> It may take overnight (you don't have to keep the soak
>> hot all the
>>> time) but the dye will leach out.
>>
>>> Of course, by soaking it for only a short while, you
>> can remove a
>>> bit of the colour to make light shades.
>>
>>> PAY ATTENTION TO THE COLOUR COMBINATIONS, rather than
>> merely using
>>> colour.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> One last: It is possible to use unexposed, developed
>> colour film as
>>> a basis for the image, and scratch the surface til
>> lines of light
>>> shine through.
>>
>>> Different effects scratching wet or dry film, side of a
>> razor
>>> blade, X-acto knife, pin, etc..
>>
>>> The Black of colour film is made up of 3 dye layers:
>> magenta, cyan,
>>> yellow.
>>
>>> SDo when you scratch film, you are scratching through 3
>> layers, and
>>> since the bottom layer is usually cyan,
>>
>>> scratching tends to give a choice of either black
>> (unscratched)
>>> clear, (fully scratched) or cyan (shallow scratch
>> leaving the
>>> bottom layer of dye.)
>>
>>>
>>
>>> If you scratch on colour negative film, the scratches
>> will come out
>>> black as the negaive iage is printed on positive
>> projection stock.
>>> Any dye colour will be inverted - green = red, etc.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> If you paint on transparent film, the colours always
>> have a white
>>> background.
>>
>>> If you have this printed on "colour positive film
>> stock"
>>> evrything's reversed: the white BG becomes black,
>>
>>> and the colours are reversed: yellow becomes purple,
>> green becomes
>>> red, light tints become dark shades.
>>
>>> This tonal-colour inverting can be done digitally, and
>> it's also
>>> possible with cetain applications to make the usual
>> white
>>> background any colour or black
>>
>>> while you leave the other colours as they are.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> You may have already checked out Jamie Cleeland's
>> stuff; (he
>>> announces his new work on FRAMEWORKS),
>>
>>> If not, check out his
>>
>>> www.archive.o
>> rg/details/
>>> ExperimentalVoodouArt5
>>
>>> He's working digitally, but his colour sense is equal
>> to the best
>>> I;ve ever seen, and most people who mess around like he
>> does or
>>> you're planning to do,
>>
>>> act as if they are totally deaf to colour. That any
>> colours and
>>> colour schemes are OK with them. (They don't pay
>> attention.)
>>>
>>
>>> And here's the website of Kasumi Minken, a Cleveland
>> Ohio digital
>>> video artist who went wild when I suggested bleaching
>> and colouring
>>> cine film.
>>
>>> - www.kasumifilms.com
>>>
>>
>>> Finally, You've seen the original painting-on-film
>> artists Norman
>>> McLaren practicing from the late '30s onward, and Len
>> Lye?
>>> McLaren is the father of you all. He directly scratched
>> or
>>> photographed for his soundtrack! There is a feature
>> length doc on
>>> MacLaren.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Any more questions, now or later, feel free.
>>
>>> And I hope you put some of your stuff up on FRAMEWORKS.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> JP
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> ' On Fri 05/06/09 19:24 , Myron Ort email suppressed
>> sent:
>>>> Will water soluble dyes work on the emulsion of estar
>> or mylar based
>>>>
>>
>>>> film stocks as well as on the old acetate bases?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Myron Ort
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:29 PM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> It is possible to remove the B&W emulsion - the
>> picture
>>>> material -
>>
>>>>> and leave the clear gelatin intact.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> The gelatin will absorb water soluble transparent
>> dyes
>>>> (Dr.
>>
>>>>> Martin's, for example).
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> B&W image silver can be removed by soaking it in a
>>
>>>> solution of
>>
>>>>> Potassium ferricyanide whcih you would find at a
>> photo
>>>> store still
>>
>>>>> selling darkroom stuff,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> or from a supplier. Try a teaspoon of the (pretty)
>>
>>>> orange powder to
>>
>>>>> a gallon of water. When image is very light or has
>>
>>>> disappeared,
>>
>>>>> dunk/rinse in water,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> and submerge in photo fixer for about 5 minutes.
>> (photo
>>>> store that
>>
>>>>> sells darkroom stuff)
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Potassium ferricyanide has that cyanide component
>>
>>>> tightly attached
>>
>>>>> to the potassium, so it's safe to use.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> However: rubber gloves, and don't let it sit around
>> in
>>>> bright
>>
>>>>> light. Bright light only, will eventually
>> disassociate
>>>> the
>>
>>>>> potqassium from the ferricyanide.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Otherwise it is stable. There are no fumes either.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> To remove the emulsion (colour or B&W) and the
>> gelatin
>>>> as well,
>>
>>>>> without using chlorine bleach,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> 3 things in any combination help this process along:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> - heat, so hot soak speeds things up,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> - time, so the soak may need overnight.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> - alkalinity also speeds things up
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Fantastic,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Sodium Metaborate which
>> Kodak
>>>> sells under
>>
>>>>> the name of "Kodalk balanced alkali",
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Borax,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Potassium Carbonate,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Sodium Phosphate aka
>>
>>>> Trisodium Phosphate,
>>
>>>>> You can get this as a heavy dutry cleaner in a
>> hardware
>>>> store.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Follow package
>>
>>>> directions and
>>
>>>>> cautions.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Jefffrey Paull
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> On Fri 05/06/09 19:24 , Myron Ort email suppressed
>> sent:
>>>> Will water soluble dyes work on the emulsion of estar
>> or mylar based
>>>>
>>
>>>> film stocks as well as on the old acetate bases?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Myron Ort
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:29 PM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> It is possible to remove the B&W emulsion - the
>> picture
>>>> material -
>>
>>>>> and leave the clear gelatin intact.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> The gelatin will absorb water soluble transparent
>> dyes
>>>> (Dr.
>>
>>>>> Martin's, for example).
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> B&W image silver can be removed by soaking it in a
>>
>>>> solution of
>>
>>>>> Potassium ferricyanide whcih you would find at a
>> photo
>>>> store still
>>
>>>>> selling darkroom stuff,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> or from a supplier. Try a teaspoon of the (pretty)
>>
>>>> orange powder to
>>
>>>>> a gallon of water. When image is very light or has
>>
>>>> disappeared,
>>
>>>>> dunk/rinse in water,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> and submerge in photo fixer for about 5 minutes.
>> (photo
>>>> store that
>>
>>>>> sells darkroom stuff)
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Potassium ferricyanide has that cyanide component
>>
>>>> tightly attached
>>
>>>>> to the potassium, so it's safe to use.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> However: rubber gloves, and don't let it sit around
>> in
>>>> bright
>>
>>>>> light. Bright light only, will eventually
>> disassociate
>>>> the
>>
>>>>> potqassium from the ferricyanide.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Otherwise it is stable. There are no fumes either.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> To remove the emulsion (colour or B&W) and the
>> gelatin
>>>> as well,
>>
>>>>> without using chlorine bleach,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> 3 things in any combination help this process along:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> - heat, so hot soak speeds things up,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> - time, so the soak may need overnight.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> - alkalinity also speeds things up
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Fantastic,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Sodium Metaborate which
>> Kodak
>>>> sells under
>>
>>>>> the name of "Kodalk balanced alkali",
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Borax,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Potassium Carbonate,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Sodium Phosphate aka
>>
>>>> Trisodium Phosphate,
>>
>>>>> You can get this as a heavy dutry cleaner in a
>> hardware
>>>> store.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Follow package
>>
>>>> directions and
>>
>>>>> cautions.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Jefffrey Paull
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
>>>> om>.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>
>>>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
>>>> om>.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
>> om>.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
>> om>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.