From: Myron Ort (email suppressed)
Date: Sat Jun 06 2009 - 11:02:15 PDT
Hi Jeffrey,
Thanks again for the good information and concise review of important
basics. I am very glad to now fully realize that the gelatin
emulsion layer on modern print stocks will still absorb the water
soluble dyes as well as previous stocks.
My recent confusion about this resulted from assuming that some
recently purchased "clear leader" preserved its emulsion layer, as it
most likely would have had it been an earlier incarnation of this
product. In fact, modern clear leader apparently can either have its
emulsion layer preserved or not depending on how it was produced.
This is not always made obvious in the marketplace. While I was
still incorrectly assuming that this clear leader had its emulsion
intact I discovered that it would NOT absorb the water soluble dyes
and somehow jumped to the conclusion that it was a problem with the
base. I have been aware of the "lip test" or "tongue test" but
sometimes one can fool oneself a bit about this. Not to say that
there aren't alternative paints, not water soluble, that will stick
when the emulsion is absent, but if one might want to actually
project hand-tinted prints, or if one's lab will not make prints when
the paint layer has a problematic "thickness" beyond the level of the
emulsion itself, then the viability of water soluble dyes becomes a
necessity since they do not add any significant "thickness" to the
film surface when finally dry.
Just to mention some of my background, I have actually been painting
on film in one form or another since the 60s. I have a background in
painting as well as film. Color as it applied to film painting has
always been a concern and a motivation since I perceived then, and
still do now, that there is still much uncharted territory there.
Some of my painting background and art education is based on the
teaching of people like Hoyt L. Sherman and the gesalt psychology of
perception, which, in its later developments included a rather
elaborate theoretical analyses of color as well as an historical
overview of color throughout its evolution in the history of
painting. I apply this to cinema.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoyt_L._Sherman
I have several new hand painted films in the works and hopefully will
have them out by the end of the year.
I find this mode of filmmaking most exciting.
Myron Ort
On Jun 6, 2009, at 6:25 AM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
> Hi, Myron,
>
> The water soluble dye is absorbed by the gelatin coating that's
> painted on the plastic film base.
> So the film base doesn't matter: mylar, Estar, acetate, etc.
> The transparent gelatin (variation of Jello) is mixed with the
> light sensitive chemicals that, on development, will become the image.
> The gelatin holds it in place, just as the paper in a magazine
> holds the image in place.
> That's why its possible to remove the developed image and leave the
> gelatin in place,
> just as (theoretically) you could remove the magazine image and
> leave the paper.)
> In any case, the gelatin-emulsion coating is the same on an Estar,
> Acetate, Mylar film base.
>
> By the way, catch reflected light on the film and you'll see
> the shiny-glossy side is the base side, and the almost matt finish
> side is the emulsion side.
>
> Another way to check which is the emulsion side is the so-called
> "lip test".
> Wet your lips and compress them (not hard) on both sides of the
> cine film.
> Part your lips, and the emulsion side will stick to the lip it just
> touched.
> Clever. (and non toxic)
>
> Water-based markers (aka non-permenant markers) work only on the
> emulsion side, Permenant markers work better on the base side.
>
> If you want to remove water-based dye from the emulsion side,
> simply soak it in warm-hot water to which maybe 10 drops of dish
> detergent has been added.
> It may take overnight (you don't have to keep the soak hot all the
> time) but the dye will leach out.
> Of course, by soaking it for only a short while, you can remove a
> bit of the colour to make light shades.
> PAY ATTENTION TO THE COLOUR COMBINATIONS, rather than merely using
> colour.
>
> One last: It is possible to use unexposed, developed colour film as
> a basis for the image, and scratch the surface til lines of light
> shine through.
> Different effects scratching wet or dry film, side of a razor
> blade, X-acto knife, pin, etc..
> The Black of colour film is made up of 3 dye layers: magenta, cyan,
> yellow.
> SDo when you scratch film, you are scratching through 3 layers, and
> since the bottom layer is usually cyan,
> scratching tends to give a choice of either black (unscratched)
> clear, (fully scratched) or cyan (shallow scratch leaving the
> bottom layer of dye.)
>
> If you scratch on colour negative film, the scratches will come out
> black as the negaive iage is printed on positive projection stock.
> Any dye colour will be inverted - green = red, etc.
>
> If you paint on transparent film, the colours always have a white
> background.
> If you have this printed on "colour positive film stock"
> evrything's reversed: the white BG becomes black,
> and the colours are reversed: yellow becomes purple, green becomes
> red, light tints become dark shades.
> This tonal-colour inverting can be done digitally, and it's also
> possible with cetain applications to make the usual white
> background any colour or black
> while you leave the other colours as they are.
>
> You may have already checked out Jamie Cleeland's stuff; (he
> announces his new work on FRAMEWORKS),
> If not, check out his
> www.archive.org/details/
> ExperimentalVoodouArt5
> He's working digitally, but his colour sense is equal to the best
> I;ve ever seen, and most people who mess around like he does or
> you're planning to do,
> act as if they are totally deaf to colour. That any colours and
> colour schemes are OK with them. (They don't pay attention.)
>
> And here's the website of Kasumi Minken, a Cleveland Ohio digital
> video artist who went wild when I suggested bleaching and colouring
> cine film.
> - www.kasumifilms.com
>
> Finally, You've seen the original painting-on-film artists Norman
> McLaren practicing from the late '30s onward, and Len Lye?
> McLaren is the father of you all. He directly scratched or
> photographed for his soundtrack! There is a feature length doc on
> MacLaren.
>
> Any more questions, now or later, feel free.
> And I hope you put some of your stuff up on FRAMEWORKS.
>
> JP
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ' On Fri 05/06/09 19:24 , Myron Ort email suppressed sent:
>> Will water soluble dyes work on the emulsion of estar or mylar based
>>
>> film stocks as well as on the old acetate bases?
>>
>>
>>
>> Myron Ort
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:29 PM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> It is possible to remove the B&W emulsion - the picture
>> material -
>>> and leave the clear gelatin intact.
>>
>>> The gelatin will absorb water soluble transparent dyes
>> (Dr.
>>> Martin's, for example).
>>
>>> B&W image silver can be removed by soaking it in a
>> solution of
>>> Potassium ferricyanide whcih you would find at a photo
>> store still
>>> selling darkroom stuff,
>>
>>> or from a supplier. Try a teaspoon of the (pretty)
>> orange powder to
>>> a gallon of water. When image is very light or has
>> disappeared,
>>> dunk/rinse in water,
>>
>>> and submerge in photo fixer for about 5 minutes. (photo
>> store that
>>> sells darkroom stuff)
>>
>>> Potassium ferricyanide has that cyanide component
>> tightly attached
>>> to the potassium, so it's safe to use.
>>
>>> However: rubber gloves, and don't let it sit around in
>> bright
>>> light. Bright light only, will eventually disassociate
>> the
>>> potqassium from the ferricyanide.
>>
>>> Otherwise it is stable. There are no fumes either.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To remove the emulsion (colour or B&W) and the gelatin
>> as well,
>>> without using chlorine bleach,
>>
>>> 3 things in any combination help this process along:
>>
>>> - heat, so hot soak speeds things up,
>>
>>> - time, so the soak may need overnight.
>>
>>> - alkalinity also speeds things up
>>
>>> Fantastic,
>>
>>> Sodium Metaborate which Kodak
>> sells under
>>> the name of "Kodalk balanced alkali",
>>
>>> Borax,
>>
>>> Potassium Carbonate,
>>
>>> Sodium Phosphate aka
>> Trisodium Phosphate,
>>> You can get this as a heavy dutry cleaner in a hardware
>> store.
>>>
>>
>>> Follow package
>> directions and
>>> cautions.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Jefffrey Paull
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> On Fri 05/06/09 19:24 , Myron Ort email suppressed sent:
>> Will water soluble dyes work on the emulsion of estar or mylar based
>>
>> film stocks as well as on the old acetate bases?
>>
>>
>>
>> Myron Ort
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:29 PM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> It is possible to remove the B&W emulsion - the picture
>> material -
>>> and leave the clear gelatin intact.
>>
>>> The gelatin will absorb water soluble transparent dyes
>> (Dr.
>>> Martin's, for example).
>>
>>> B&W image silver can be removed by soaking it in a
>> solution of
>>> Potassium ferricyanide whcih you would find at a photo
>> store still
>>> selling darkroom stuff,
>>
>>> or from a supplier. Try a teaspoon of the (pretty)
>> orange powder to
>>> a gallon of water. When image is very light or has
>> disappeared,
>>> dunk/rinse in water,
>>
>>> and submerge in photo fixer for about 5 minutes. (photo
>> store that
>>> sells darkroom stuff)
>>
>>> Potassium ferricyanide has that cyanide component
>> tightly attached
>>> to the potassium, so it's safe to use.
>>
>>> However: rubber gloves, and don't let it sit around in
>> bright
>>> light. Bright light only, will eventually disassociate
>> the
>>> potqassium from the ferricyanide.
>>
>>> Otherwise it is stable. There are no fumes either.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To remove the emulsion (colour or B&W) and the gelatin
>> as well,
>>> without using chlorine bleach,
>>
>>> 3 things in any combination help this process along:
>>
>>> - heat, so hot soak speeds things up,
>>
>>> - time, so the soak may need overnight.
>>
>>> - alkalinity also speeds things up
>>
>>> Fantastic,
>>
>>> Sodium Metaborate which Kodak
>> sells under
>>> the name of "Kodalk balanced alkali",
>>
>>> Borax,
>>
>>> Potassium Carbonate,
>>
>>> Sodium Phosphate aka
>> Trisodium Phosphate,
>>> You can get this as a heavy dutry cleaner in a hardware
>> store.
>>>
>>
>>> Follow package
>> directions and
>>> cautions.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Jefffrey Paull
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
>> om>.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
>> om>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.